You might have air in your abs. You can also try to gravity bleed the brakes. Real slow but it works

 

What was the level of Brake Fluid in the reservoir?
Brake Pedal's hitting the floor?
There's a Hydraulic problem; somewhere.
Do you see any evidence of a leak?
You should normally troubleshoot the whole kit and caboodle for a brake fluid leak after checking the reservoir and doing a perfunctory bleeding to see if hydraulic pressure can be developed.

 

Ok so the resivour was full. So before pulling the master off of the brake booster I had bleed the breaks or so I thought. I started at the rear passenger side and did all 4 brakes with a hose and bottle by my self probably 3 times. Then had a friend help me and went around twice. I felt pressure with the car off but then when I started the car and pushed the brake, it went soft. I do not see a liquid leak anywhere. The reason I thought the booster is because when I push in the pedal and it gets near the floor I hear a small click and what sounds like a spit if air. So I was thinking that the diaphragm had a leak but I don't see a diaphragm in this 2012.

 

What was happening to the Break Fluid in the reservoir while the bleeding was being conducted?
Did any pressure develop at all?

 

Oh yes sorry. If I kept the vehicle off then yes I felt pressure build up through the pedal getting harder to press. I also could spin wheel hub and if someone hit the brakes it would stop, this is when the car off. I didn't try the wheels with the car on because that is then the pedal looses that pressure and sinks. When I was bleeding the brakes obviously the fluid level receded because of me cracking the valve but since closing all valves the fluid level has stayed the same.

 

There's a procedure in the service manual regarding the proper way to bleed the ABS brakes and it's module.

 

Are you referring to the service manual that I purchased yesterday through Chilton but that I have yet to gain access to because they can't find my purchase. LOL They took $35 out of my PayPa Chilton which is now part of Cengage withdrew the money do hopefully I will have access today.

 

Sorry to break the news but for that $35.00 you could have grabbed up the factory service manual on a CD-ROM from eBay. I don't trust Chiltons, too simplified with too few details.

 

Really, dam. I found the service manual on ebay and it was like $400 but it was the actual books. I'm about to look for cd now.

 

Everything you've done ... thus far, to check-for or eliminate any air bubbles within the system, ... considered. ✔︎
And, ... the behavior of the "Pedal" ... before - during - after ... bleeding the brakes, ... considered. ✔︎
The problem you've got there seems to be isolated at the Master Cylinder.
The Master Cylinder's Main Hydraulic Seal.
...................................
Where others may advise you to "Throw a rebuild kit in it!" ... I don't ever make that suggestion to anyone.
Not with Brake Master Cylinders. ✔︎
New Master. Bench bleed it before installing.
Then, ... bleed the entire system according to Hoyle.
Use only approved, fresh, clean, Brake Fluid from an unopened container.
Good luck.

"In general, whenever you are bleeding an ABS-equipped vehicle you do so exactly as you would any other vehicle - "Pump-up" the pedal to pressurize the system, ... HOLD, ... Open a bleeder, ... Maintain constant pressure upon pedal while it descends with bleeder open. Close the bleeder, and repeat." -- J.Walker Jr. / Team Walker

Bleeding Anti Lock Brakes | Brakes-shop.com

Leading innovator & distributor of world class brake components and systems for race cars and high performance vehicles on the street and track.

www.brakes-shop.com

 

I've been through this before, unfortunately if air gets introduced above the ABS system and there's no way to get rid of that air without it going through the ABS system it's probably best to pay a qualified mechanic to do it. That, however, should not result in a complete brake failure, if air gets caught in the ABS you'll most likely get spongy brakes, still a real problem but they would work at least somewhat.

So I am thinking, the rod or dowel from your brake booster isn't lined up with the master cylinder piston properly.
That one's a bit of a trick, to make sure that rod gets lined up as you install the master cylinder.
If it's not lined up right then it can't push the master cylinder's piston, instead it just goes into the space there is beside it and you have no brakes.
This is another that, it may be best to pay a qualified mechanic although it's not as bad as the air in the ABS. In most cases it should just line up on its own, however it is still always a good idea to look closely as the master cylinder goes into place, to make sure that rod is properly lined up before sealing that gap and tightening down the nuts onto the bolts that hold it all on.

You might try and partially remove the master cylinder, you may be able to just loosen / remove the bolts / nuts that hold it onto the brake booster and move it partly out while looking in there to inspect that rod's position, a flashlight might help and hopefully you don't have to disconnect any brake lines.

 

"Master Cylinder. Master Cylinder.
You can do it!
Master Cylinder. Master Cylinder.
You can do it!"

AutoZone has them all over the place!
They got the ones them good old boys use for racing.
They got the ones just like yours, ... already fixed; and raring to go.
Plus, ...
They got the one's that chaffed everybody's ass when the brand moved-out of MoTown, ... if you know what I'm sayin'?
It does not matter one bit, ... which one you choose.
Every last one of them is better than what you're holding.
Haven't you replaced everything that you could get loose on that baby, already?

 

"Master Cylinder. Master Cylinder.
You can do it!
Master Cylinder. Master Cylinder.
You can do it!"

AutoZone has them all over the place!
They got the ones them good old boys use for racing.
They got the ones just like yours, ... already fixed; and raring to go.
Plus, ...
They got the one's that chaffed everybody's ass when the brand moved-out of MoTown, ... if you know what I'm sayin'?
It does not matter one bit, ... which one you choose.
Every last one of them is better than what you're holding.
Haven't you replaced everything that you could get loose on that baby, already? View attachment 165129

Not yet but it seems I have begun. I don't want to be the guy who just replaced every part because I am unknowledgeable but I don't mind being the guy who replaces everything because it's easier than cleaning 10 years of gunk off the part. 🤣.

 

So a little update this far. I did remove the master but will actually replace it later this week. I first just wanted to get in there and see if the booster looked bad. When I got in there it didn't have the diaphragm like previous models so without removing the booster I have no clue if it's bad. I am going to include some pics and a video if it will let me. The reason the video is because of something a person said about the piston not hitting the master correctly. But when I hit the brakes with the bat in and in drive the left axel stops and right side doesn't do I don't thing this would happen if it's the piston on booster. I'm not afraid to replace any part but at this point but knowing what it is I think I'm going to have a guy with a good computer with the ABS function come over to the house and diagnosis the issue so I can fix it.

 

Had to add pictures separate.

 

Screenshot of the video I couldn't upload but wanted you to see that in changed the booster so it wasn't that seal.

 

Oh!!!
Did you bench bleed the master cylinder first?

 

I find it hard to believe that somehow your brake booster or master cylinder failed right when you changed out other parts of the car. I feel like this is an Occams Razor example. You put new calipers on, and likely introduced air into the system that wasn't there before. The booster worked before you did this work, so the absence of a seal/diaphragm is not going to be the problem, right? I'd say get someone in there that can activate the ABS purge with a computer and bleed the brakes again. If you are really having problems getting it bled, you could try a Mityvac hand pump to assist. Make sure there are no air bubbles in the hose.

FYI, this is the bleed procedure:

1. CAUTION

   Caution The Auto Bleed Procedure may be terminated at any time during the process by pressing the EXIT button. No further Scan Tool prompts pertaining to the Auto Bleed procedure will be given. After exiting the bleed procedure, relieve bleed pressure and disconnect bleed equipment per manufacturers instructions. Failure to properly relieve pressure may result in spilled brake fluid causing damage to components and painted surfaces.

   
   Raise and support the vehicle.
2. Remove the tire and wheel assemblies.
3. Inspect the brake system for leaks and visual damage.
4. Lower the vehicle.
5. Prepare the brake bleeding equipment and the vehicle for a pressure bleed of the base hydraulic brake system.
6. Inspect the battery state of charge.
7. Install a scan tool.
8. Turn the ignition ON, with the engine OFF.
9. With the scan tool, perform the following steps:
   1. Select Diagnostics
   2. Select the appropriate vehicle information
   3. Select Chassis
   4. Select Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM)
   5. Select Special Functions
   6. Select Automated Bleed
10. With an assistant ready, raise and support the vehicle.
11. 
    

    NOTE

    Note Apply the brake pedal when instructed, using moderate effort. Ensure the pedal remains applied until instructed to release by the scan tool. Do not exceed the time period allowed by the scan tool for having the bleeder valves open. The bleed sequence for each corner is as follows: Left front Right front Right rear Left rear

    
    Perform the automated bleed procedure as instructed by the scan tool.
12. If the automated bleed procedure is aborted, a malfunction exists.
13. After completion of the automated bleed procedure, press and hold the brake pedal to inspect for pedal firmness.
14. If the brake pedal feels spongy, repeat the bleed procedure completely.
15. Remove the scan tool.
16. Install the tire and wheel assemblies.
17. Lower the vehicle.
18. Adjust the brake fluid level.
19. Road test the vehicle while confirming the brake pedal remains high and firm.

 

There's a few things you should have for doing Brake Fluid work.
One of these is helpful.
Especially, ... if you're doing a Brake Fluid exchange without replacing the Master.
Evacuating the MC reservoir of "Stale" fluid is a cinch with one of these.
Known to most wrencher's as: "'Lil-babies Booger Sucker's" ... an Ear Syringe is a handy-dandy tool for evacuating fluid from the MC... power flushing Carburetor Passages, squirting cleaners on things.

If you use it cleaning carbs or douching Throttle Bodies with Carb Cleaner; it will do he job.
But, ... Carb Cleaner does a number on the elasticity of the Bulb; rendering it useless afterwords.

 

 

You can go to your local library and use your there books. They have repair manuals that you can reference too. the library card is free. You can also access the manual from your home computer but you need the library account to access the website. good luck !

 

Just a thought, you did put the new calipers on the correct sides?

 

Yeah I'm positive because I've had to turn in two different calipers for warranty replacement within a week and haven't even got the car on the road yet. I usually buy my parts online but I bought my calipers at O'Reilly's with lifetime warranty but the bleeder valves on them were horrible so the first one broke inside the caliper the next one was threaded like sideways so I was getting air leaking around it. That's the last time I'll buy calipers from O'Reilly's that's for sure.

 

Bench Bleed a brand new Master Cylinder.
Look right in your vast collection of absolutely useless Phillips or Cross Head drivers and grab a new recruit.
Hit the Grinder.
Here's our Bench Bleeding Tool.
Teflon™ Wrap Cap Screws.
Taped Cap Screws aid in plugging / venting new MC ports while priming the new MC.
New Brake Fluid.
Lots.

 

So just an update where I'm at on the Impala I was thinking I would have it on the road last week but the break thing was just driving me insane. I still am not totally sure why the issue I'm having is there to begin with because when I brought put the car into the garage the brakes were working at least they were stopping my car anyways. But still I've went through every break valve I used a pneumatic bleeder I gravity but I've done everything possible except for bench bleeding the master cylinder which I'm about to do right now but I'm pretty sure I have pinpointed what the issue is and I'd like all of you to weigh in if you think that this is accurate.

So I noticed when I was letting my car sit idle because for one of the bleeds I decided to have the car on thinking that might help. Well anyways I noticed that there was some sputtering going on in the engine It wasn't It didn't sound normal anymore. Well I just thought maybe the computer just needed to you know recalibrate itself or something so I just wasn't too worried about it while the brake issue continued with the pedal falling to the floor. Well I happen to catch a little bit of a video of a guy talking about fuel trim levels and I'm not very smart with cars I didn't know that all the stuff was connected started reading into it and realized that the brake booster gets its air or puts its air into the engine up to the air intake. So I'm thinking okay what does that mean Well I got my little computer out my cheap little one and open the diagram on the short fuel trim levels on banks one and two and I could actually push the brake and as long as I was pumping the brake I could actually watch the line staircased up from around -2 to +2 all the way up to 28 and then as soon as I would either let off the break or just hold the break to the floor that number would go back down and settle back at where it normally goes or normally is right now. So that means that instead of the air being held in the brake booster it's going into the air intake into the fuel injection right? Well as I'm telling the story to a mechanic I ran into it to the store he finished my sentence and said that that's what that was. So right now I'm getting ready to perform a pressures check on the system to see if that the booster holds it or not. But anyways I was not expecting to pay another $150 on the car part today but fun fun.

By the way there's anybody know if I can use a brake booster from a 2011 Chevy Impala and put it on my 2012 Chevy Impala?
According to AutoZone they're different but I don't know that I trust that completely.

 

Looks like they are in fact different part #s from 2011 to 2012. You can use anything from 2012-2013 or the 2014-2016 impala limited. For part refrences I almost always use rockauto.com. You can search your car and find the part you are looking for, then click on the part number (blue hyperlink which says "buyer's guide" when hovered over) and it will show you which vehicles it is compatible with.

Sounds like the diaphragm in the brake booster is bad. When you actuate the pedal you shouldn't be introducing any air into the engine as that should always be under vacuum. Weird that went bad right when you changed brakes. I suppose all the priming/bleeding could have caused it to go bad. Better now than when you are driving down the road though I suppose.

 

I think you're not dealing with bubbles and major air pockets after all the bleeding of brakes you have done.
I strongly suspect the Brake Master Cylinder's Main Hydraulic Seal.
The Main one which is supposed to Pump the Brake Fluid ... OUT ... allow for Fluid to pass from reservoir into system, ...
But, ... NEVER ... in the opposite direction causing Hydraulic Pressure LOSS.

If Brake Fluid is seeping past the Main Hydraulic Seal under pressure, .... after purging and bleeding ... allowing the Pedal little if no resistance as pressure fails.
The Master Cylinder's bad.

""So that means that instead of the air being held in the brake booster it's going into the air intake into the fuel injection right? ""

NO. Abb-so-freakin'-loot-leee, ... NOT!
Wrong.

 

""So that means that instead of the air being held in the brake booster it's going into the air intake into the fuel injection right? ""

NO. Abb-so-freakin'-loot-leee, ... NOT!
Wrong.

If the brake booster has a leak in the diaphragm it absolutely will allow air to enter into the air intake. Talking about the brake booster, not the master cylinder. Maybe you should do more research before you tell someone they are "
Abb-so-freakin'-loot-leee, ... NOT! Wrong."

Here is an article explaining how the brake booster works and what happens when it fails:

AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Vacuum Brake Boosters

AGCO provides overall lowest costs of vehicle ownership. We do this by providing extremely high quality automotive service, following the theories and practices of Dr. W. Edwards Deming., Vacuum brake booster

www.agcoauto.com

If you dont want to open it, read this snippet:
"A ruptured diaphragm also allows, atmospheric pressure to enter the intake manifold. This creates a vacuum leak and causes the fuel/air mixture to lean out. Other than hard braking, another symptom is an engine misfire at idle, when we depress the brake pedal. "

I think you are on the right track with the brake booster. Often times when a booster goes bad, it is due to a leaking master cylinder though also (brake fluid deteriorates the diaphragm), so I would double check that it isn't leaking.

 

This fellow needs a Master Cylinder.
No AIR enters the FUEL INJECTION.
Clear this up before making an issue with anyone trying to help this gentlemen.

Manifold Vacuum operates the Booster.
Air gets drawn into the engine's combustion chambers.
Fuel is injected into the cylinders.
No air enters FUEL Injection.
Hook-up whatever you like that is operated by Manifold Vacuum.
AIR does NOT enter FUEL INJECTION.

Mr. Wideman is the member who requires instruction and assistance.
This thread began with him saying: Pedal went to the FLOOR.

Brake Pedal to floor.
Pedal to Floor?

Please assist Mr. Wideman with his Master Cylinder problem.
After he gets some Hydraulic Pressure in the Brake System would be a good time to bring-up manifold vacuum assisted braking.
Agreed???

 

Alright...I guess if you want to be that technical and not actual try to understand what he is saying, then yes, you are correct. Air does not enter the fuel injection. Obviously it was not worded correctly, but he is trying to understand why the fuel trim is being changed by the pedal actuation. Understanding that, it IS because there is unmetered air entering the intake from the vacuum booster. I'm not here to argue whether or not he may also need a master cylinder. I think that is very likely, and was likely the cause of the brake booster going bad (as I mentioned in my post). I was just answering his question about his fuel trim observations and you leading him to think there is nothing wrong with the brake booster, when there more than likely is.

 

Exactly.
Right on the nose.
I like your style.
I didn't mean to mislead anyone about the Brake Booster.
The one I'd have him install comes attached to the new MC.

If someone was to tap my shoulder and ask what to do; I might say let's try kits.
In the Forum, ... I'll never recommend kits.
Brakes ain't no foolin'-uh-round!

You should be moderating!

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NBB509089?cid=paidsearch_shopping_dcoe_google&campaign=GSC-Brakes&campaign_id=8659198719&adgroup_id=106304766654&adtype=pla_with_promotion&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8YTV-K6f8wIV1frICh1xLwZ2EAQYBSABEgJzh_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&&__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_MYKJvEorTXKKhfWnDzionl7X0gIarkovhY73FBcD12w-1632753027-0-gqNtZGzNAzujcnBszQzR

 

Hey guys, I am very sorry for not responding in a timely manner. Been dealing with don't personal crap either with my health or the health of close family. I'm only 38 and am over watching my closest people get old or die. Anyways, I really appreciate everyone's comments and detailed pics. Even if you guys don't agree with each other it is all helpful in one way or the other to someone with little knowledge, although my knowledge level is increasing substantial with all the reading and trial and error. So no offense to anyone but I am more inclined to go by the word of reubenswinks because he had been helpful in the past. I have the new/used, with a guarantee and warranty, brake booster on the vehicle. I was not at any point losing fluid unless I opened a bleeder valve. I am hooking everything back up tonight. So in order to get access to the brake booster I had to remove the intake manifold. There was just no other way for me to figure out how to do it without doing that. While I was in there I cleaned out the upper manifold that detaches from the vehicle and then I cleaned down in the lifter areas on the ones with closed lifters that is. I am putting on new gasket now. Here are don't pics. I will update you all even I'm back on the road or run into another mind bender. LOL Thanks again guys.

 

So, what happened with the impala? With the brake situation ?