Found some interesting info here, there is a wire that provides 12v from the ignition, also the bolts might not be getting a good ground??


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x2hIOtBfzE

 

If you have good bat then test for intermittent start circuit.

Since its so intermittent you may have to use a test light that you can see while behind the wheel when starting engine.

Get a electrical diagram of the starting circuit.
First step determine if starter solenoid is getting voltage during no crank.
Connect wire from solenoid to test light.

If no voltage during no crank than follow diagram and connect light to next logical test point.
If 12v then suspect starter if connections/wiring from bat good.

 

I do hear a "click" when this happens, but no crank attempt at all. Battery is good.

So let me get this straight, use a tester with a light and alligator clips with the hood open, attach this every morning and wait for it to fail and see if there was voltage getting there?

 

Since it is so intermittent best to have test light near driver. This will mean running wire from solenoid to inside cab.

The click you hear may be start relay or starter solenoid. Verify that solenoid is/or is not getting power during the no crank condition.

Of course if you can catch the problem by testing numerous times with hood open, test light on solenoid, so much the better.

 

After replacing the ignition switch it started 20x without issue, now it did it twice today. You just never know when the part will give out and you will be left stranded. Before changing the ignition switch I used to leave the car running while shopping quickly. I have towing from insurance but still...

I'm beginning to think it is PCM issue??

Can anyone explain why disconnecting the battery for second let's it start up as if nothing happened? Is this normal for a bad starter to work after disconnecting power for a second? In videos on youtube of impalas with bad starters it's almost like a passlock issue, except in my case all the electronics go dead! For other people when they cycle the key back off the start position they get their electronics back, mine just go out.

here is an example of one such impala problem that turned out to be the starter (according to the shop but who knows what else was wrong), but see how he gets his electronics back after it doesn't start!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGaXLXuOxGg


After the 20 successful starts, there were only two things that changed, I replaced the rear interior lights with LED's, front map lights were already LED. Then it rained, since the day I drove through the rain it's like the problem came back. Why is the LED significant you ask? Well I don't know that it is, but when you have all 4 LED's (2 under the mirror and 2 in the back) the lights in the mirror do not fully dim when driving, they never fully turn off. If you have regular incandescent bulbs in the back the front map lights will fully turn off during driving (even if you have only 1 incandescent). I'm not sure if this is related but just wanted to make note of this.

***Edit Another thought came to mind regarding the LED's, when starting the car will automatically turn off components, like headlights, radio, and maybe interior lights before cranking so you have max power to crank and turn the engine over. Perhaps the LED's are causing some issue with the circuit. Just a thought.

 

"Can anyone explain why disconnecting the battery for second let's it start up as if nothing happened?"

Do you have a remote start or after market anti-theft that may be resetting with the disconnect of the battery?

"In videos on youtube of impalas with bad starters it's almost like a passlock issue, except in my case all the electronics go dead!"

Regarding passlock, security light is normal?
Electronics go dead. Does this mean dash lights go out when trying to start?

Take a look at Eric the Car Guy no crank no start video.

 

I have already seen that video but will check it again,

No security light on this car ever. No remote start on it ever. No other anti-theft or alarms, the only modification is the LED's in the interior except for the ashtray and the two courtesy entry lights by your feet at each front seat.

 

If you can verify that the solenoid is getting correct voltage during the no crank then suspect intermittent starter problem.
This assumes that bat can give you at least 10v during cranking and that starter circuit wiring/connections are good.

 

Today I will remove the plastic cover and visually inspect the connections to the starter. I will report my findings back here.

Unfortunately I have this urge to just throw a part at it...at new starter, car has over 100k anyway and the AC Delco starter is $100 new, if that's not it I'll just chalk it up and preventative maintenance and then I'll have a working starter on hand.

Also the circuit tester (looks like screw driver with a wire and light inside it) might not be enough to diagnose this, you need to see the actual voltages ideally. For all I know it could be a bad wire from the battery to the starter.

 

AC Delco has a $15 off promo on amazon right now off of "ACDelco 337-1114" (new not re-manufactured), I got mine for a total of $98 with $6 tax. It reg sells for $107 without tax and shipping. Figured I'd jump on the deal and chalk it up to preventative maintenance. I'd rather have a good working starter then be stranded somewhere in the future.

I will replace the starter and report back here if it fixes the issue.

Link to the product in case anyone wants it Amazon.com: ACDelco 337-1114 Professional Starter: Automotive

 

Just going to break down my logic here for myself and others:


There are a few possibilities to this no crank, no start condtion on the impala.

1. BCM
2. Ignition switch and/or ignition cylinder which has the passlock chip
3. Starter motor (starter solenoid) or some connection going to it
4. Some other computer related issue like PCM (powertrain control module)
5. Electrical Short caused by EBCM or ABS Pump bad ground.

Let's break down each of the above.

1. BCM or Body Control Module was already replaced on this car, the symptoms were similar to what I'm having now and this can't be ruled out as failing for a second time. The car would not crank or start and disconnecting the battery would fix the issue. In addition to that the inteior lights would not turn on when opening the door, the car would sometimes shut off while driving and when the car would not start all the guages (step motors?) would make funny noises as they were "stuck" in place.

2. The ignition switch seems to be a common point of failure on these cars, mine however, did not have any security lights on it ever. This would be more indicative of the infamous "passlock" problem on GM cars. I did not replace my lock cylinder (part with the passlock chip yet) only the ignition switch

3. In some cases where a shop or dealer has diagnosed this same issue as being the starter the car exhibits symptoms similar to what you would experience during a passlock issue. In my case, I think what's happening is when I go to start the car a problem with eh solendoid is causing the BCM to short out and all the electronics go dead. This is why disconnecting the battery fixes it. If disconnecting the battery and reconnecting it fixes the issue I think this is more indicative of a "computer" problem, this could mean the BCM or something else. Possibly PCM? or both? Either way attempting to start the car is causing something that controls the electrical system (eh hem...BCM) to short out.

4. See 3 above

5. EBCM (Electronic brake control module) could be related to the short or the ABS pump motor. This car has codes, C1218 (Pump Motor Circuit Short to Voltage Or Motor Ground Open) and C1243 (Pump Motor Stalled). I will have to look at a wiring diagram but if this is related to starting at all it could be causing the short. If anyone has a better idea of the wiring as it relates to these components please comment.


Other than the issues related to the ABS everything is relatively cheap to fix.

BCM costs $120 on amazon and you can have it programmed at the dealer and put it on yourself.

AC Delco Starter is around $100

PCM $500 I think, not sure if you can do this yourself

ABS Pump Motor, roughly $500 for the part alone and you can't bleed it yourself, you need a shop or dealer to do it. But you could install yourself and tow it.

EBCM is $400 roughly for just the part.

So roughly a $1000+ if it's related to the ABS components causing the short.

The BCM, Starter, and both the ignition lock and cylinder can all be taken care of for around $500 if you do most of the work yourself.

So in total around $1500 if everything failed and needs to be replaced, ABS Pump, EBCM, Starter, BCM, ignition switch, ignition cylinder. Looking at over $2000 if PCM is also bad.

Or better yet, just disconnect your battery before each start like I was doing...cost: Free

 

Just for grins,try disconnecting the opposite bat connection to see if the fox still works. Maybe there is a mechanical/electrical problem with one connector or bat.

 

Car sat all night and I thought I would go back to my routine of disconnecting the battery before each start.

This has failed twice, always on the first start of the morning. Other than that it seems it works. In other words disconnecting the battery and reconnecting does not guarantee that it won't short out when you turn the key.

So I disconnected the battery, turned the key to start, all electronics went dead, then I disconnected the battery again, turned the key and it started right up Amazing isn't it?

 

Any other codes besides the ABS?
Consider having dealer check for BCM codes.

There are a lot of possible problems, as you listed, but without a schematic and volt meter to narrow down possibilities its change parts and hope for the best.

Keep in mind that in the process of changing parts, installation and faulty parts can cause addition problems.

 

Ok guys, what if I told you that the no start issue is related to the LED lights? That's right, this car electrical system does not play well when you change all the interior lights to LED's. As I said before when all 4 interior lights are LED's the map lights (the ones in the mirror) never fully turn off while driving. Upon looking at them closely I could tell they were blinking rapidly, not enough variation in intensity to notice unless you peak your head under the mirror...

So this morning I went to start the car without disconnecting the battery first just for kicks. As I turned the key the BCM shorted out and all the electronics went dead even before I could get the key to start and send a signal to the starter motor. In addition to this the guages started to make those "funny" noises (stepper motors I believe). This was a dead giveaway to me that the BCM was shorting out or failing (I've had this problem before and had my BCM replaced so I know the symptoms). That's when I realized that the rear LED's that I added after installing my new ignition switch might be the cause of this no start condition. Let me explain more for those who didn't read my previous posts.

I had a no crank, no start condition, I suspected the ignition switch so I replaced it. After doing so I tallied how many successive starts I had without the system shorting out. I had over 20 starts over a period of a few days. Thinking I had solved the problem I decided to add the rear LED's, I already had them in the mirror and the ones by my feet were the regular incandesecent ones.

I also messed with the ABS control module cable. After adding the LED's I had the no start issues again. This time it was even worse than before the ignition switch. I thought no way some dumb LED's could cause it :dunno:

Afterall they draw even less current from the system so how could this not be good? Well after replacing the rear lights with regular bulbs I just went for two test drives around the block 30 mins apart. Also started the car 6 times successfully, I was lucky to get one start before.

I will continue to monitor the situation and report back here. If the car starts well over the next few days we can conclude that the LED's def played a role in all this. I will likely cancel my starter motor order tomorrow if everything works out and it continues to start. If I do have the no start issue again I will spend the $100 that I was going to on the new start on a proper diagnosis from the dealer. Since this car has ABS issues which can be related to so many things it is worth the $130 or so that the dealer charges to find out if my wheel hubs, abs sensors, abs pump, and EBCM are ok as well as the BCM and some diagnostics related to the starting system.

I can live with an ABS light, I really don't feel good about the system dying when I try to start it, you feel like you will be left stranded at every start. Well worth a $130 to find the issue.

 

I would love to know if anyone figured this out. My 2003 Alero is having this same stupid issue, thankfully my wife's Impala is fine. I even put a new starter in it, ignition switch. All that's left is PCm or BCM.

 

Well, this sure did reinforce my beliefs about LED "bulbs" - which is "don't bother replacing perfectly good incandescent bulbs!"

I never understood the whole LED craze. The majority of them are garbage and seem to burn out quicker than incandescent bulbs - and why would anyone want interior bulbs so bright that they blind you if you look at them anyway??

For the exterior, you have the whole hyper-blink issues, bulb-out message issues, etc - and they don't reflect properly off of the stock enclosure reflectors anyway (since they don't shine light in all directions like incandescent bulbs).

I tried exterior LED bulbs when I put my dark tinted tails on and even with the brightest LED bulbs available (VERY expensive), my inexpensive incandescent bulbs were brighter!

Just not many advantages of LED "bulbs" in my opinion - at least not in cars designed for incandescent bulbs.... Especially considering the cost and labor involved with replacing them! Maybe for some specific, specialized uses, but I see absolutely no reason to replace incandescent bulbs under normal circumstances....

It would also drive me CRAZY knowing that my bulbs weren't going out all of the way when I turn them off! Surely, that would be noticeable at night??

Sent from my HP SlateBook 10 x2 PC using Tapatalk

 

Only the map light LED's don't fully turn off...consider it ambient lighting, a feature you would pay a lot extra for in luxury cars these days. I will see how things go today but I'm much more confident about the car starting up without issue now that the rear bulbs have been replaced. I will keep updating this thread, if the car starts up as usual we can conclude the LED's were causing a short with the BCM on startup. If I do have the no start issue again I will take it to the dealer for a proper diagnosis and share my findings here.

I believe the first time my BCM went out it was caused by HID conversion kits for the headlights which use a balast to power them on. Although HID's use less wattage than regular headlights when running, they require more wattage on startup, remember that when you use your unlock button the car headlights blink 3x, this causes a surge in voltage to be drawn in the circuit. Eventually my philips balast failed! so I just removed the whole kit and went back to regular headlights. But I suspect it was too late, it had already done damage to my BCM which started exhibiting symptoms of dying. For example, my interior lights would never work when I opened the door. They could only be turned on from inside with the switch. Disconnecting hte battery for a second would let the interior lights work again for a short time until they would not turn on while opening the door. Over the next few years the entire BCM would die, as confirmed by the dealerships diagnosis.

In short, stick with the systems your car as designed to use for simplicity sake, you can modify but you may need to add resistors and such to keep from causing shorts and destroying your vehicle. If you are an expert in electronics go ahead and have fun, knock yourself out with modifications, for the rest of us it's probably not worth the effort.

 

Had another great day, started many times and no trouble at all, let's see if I can keep the streak going

 

I'm going to consider this issue resolved. Here is a summary

The initial No crank, no start, condition was due to a bad ignition switch. After replacing the ignition switch I put LED bulbs in the next day in the interior. The no crank condition returned. I traced to the LED's by replacing them back with regular bulbs. The car has been starting up for a few days now well over 20 starts. I can say with certainty the cause was the LED's.

 

Im gonna grab one vagina a day and make america great again.

 

The issue is a no crank, no start, all electronics dead condition. Originally when I took it to the dealer they diagnosed it as a bad BCM, which I could tell was failing due to the weird sounds from the gauges and other funny issues with the electronics as well as the car shutting off while driving.

I paid the $600 or so to replace the bcm after towing it there, it finally gave out completely and I had no choice. Generally disconnecting the battery for a second would solve the issue.

After running great for 2 years I ended up with the same issue minus the funny electronics issues and noises from the gauges. I still suspected the BCM but it was past the warranty period. I doubt it's the BCM again, I figured it was the ignition switch. I replaced the ignition switch with a dorman part and all was good for about 20 starts. Then just today I had the same issue. No crank, no start, all electronics dead. I disconnected the battery for a second and it started right up like nothing happened (as usual)

So guys, what's left? :bang: Starter motor? There must be a short between the ignition switch and the starter motor? The starter works fine (after disconnecting the battery), starts right up, no funny noises. Is there some component inside it that could have failed?

AC delco starter is $107 on amazon. Is there anything I can do or replace before dropping a 100 bucks on a new one? Relay? Fuse?

Any help would be appreciated. I have seen one video on youtube where a guy had this condition with the impala and it was the starter. It's tough to diagnose since it's 1/20 starts or so. Oh and by the way last night I drove it through the rain, this morning is when it did not start. Wetness related?

PCM has starter relay n it, need to verify its working also! I have same issue with a random no crank, looking at wiring dia u see it is the control, don’t jest throw parts at it! This site should have told u about it

 

• I say tear all the extra electronic stuff out and make this car custom and simple like before the CONTROL MODULE for cars was ever invented. Don't really need electronic chips in a gasoline powered car. ...

 

I have a 2011 Impala 3.5 that allegedly have a bad neutral safety switch wich was replaced. The car will not turn over unless I go to the fuse box and then I can turn it over by the starter relay but that's all, car will not start. Will not turn over at the key.

 

So, you still have a bad neutral safety switch?