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This is a popular misconception, why do you need a 15 minute fill up when you can plug in in seconds in the evening at home? A model 3 is so efficient it can get something like 5miles per hour plugged in pulling 12amps from a 15amp 120volt wall outlet, plugged in for 10 hours a night that would be enough for a 50mile commute. Charging wise, the 3 at a superchargerdepending on the battery can soak up as much as 150kw at lower charge levels which works out to like 650mph charge rate which falls as the battery fills.
https://insideevs.com/news/343622/tesla-model-3-on-supercharger-v3-here-are-the-charging-specs/
So in a roadtrip a food and bathroom break of 20-30minutes can mean 200-270miles or range added. Granted it is not 3 minutes for 400miles like a gas car but better than most of you expect.
https://electrek.co/2018/08/10/tesla-supercharger-cover-99-us-population-within-150-miles/
It's not a misconception, it's a matter of what I want.
I do not want a vehicle I have to plug in for 10 hours to go 50 miles.
I like how I can spend less than 15 minutes, fill up my car and be able to travel 400 miles or so before needing to refill. I don't want a seperate much more expensive car just to drive to work and around town in in. I like just hopping in whatever daily driver I have and taking road trips when I feel like it and never worrying about whether I'll be stranded because of not having anywhere to fill up or having to wait a long time to do it.

If I'm going to spend my money on an electric vehicle and I still have a choice then it needs to be what I want or it's going to be the gas vehicle.

I see on the Tesla map for chargers here https://www.tesla.com/findus?bounds=54.3280328157084,-57.079102750000004,21.92058674478928,-141.45410275&zoom=5&filters=store,service,supercharger,destination charger that there is currently 1 station with 6 chargers 12 miles away from me. The next closest one is about 90 miles away with 8 chargers. That is exactly what I am talking about. They need many more before I would even consider an electric vehicle. They are building more in my area so that's good but still they have a long long way to go.
 

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You are not actually listening. The 5miles per hour is on a standard wall outlet, dryer outlet is 22miles and there are other options up over 30 you can put in your garage. Plugging in takes seconds, there is a button on the connector that opens the port and then it charges while you sleep.

These days for me going to the gas station for lawn mower gas is a giant hassle. I am used to filling up at home. If it takes 30 seconds a day to plug and unplug that is under 4 minutes a week and it takes far less time.

The superchargers are for travel and outside California waiting a turn to charge is basically unheard of, and the car actually displays how many stalls are on use before you arrive..

I really don't think road trips under 400miles take any longer, yes long trips will take longer but honestly fore the opportunity to get out for 30minutes makes for a more comfortable trip, thought that might just be my middle aged back.

The vast majority of charging is done as you sleep, why fixate on the duration of charging if you are in the house with the family?

On the next supercharger being 90miles away that is fine, you charge at home before leaving and probably aren't looking for a stop till 150-200miles out.

Please don't take this as saying electric is right for all, I have no plans to replace my wife's car or my beater truck with electric. Just saying your arguments are flawed.

Besides the power grid is not there for large scale adaptation, night charging during low grid load definitely has room for growth but not to replace a big percentage of the gas fleet.
 

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Don't forget the peak / off-peak game. In my Volt, I could program the car to charge only at certain times. In my area, off-peak hours in the summer are from 11 pm to 7 am. Running a 30 amp 240V charger I started charging at midnight and the car was fully charged before 5 am.
 

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You are not actually listening. The 5miles per hour is on a standard wall outlet, dryer outlet is 22miles and there are other options up over 30 you can put in your garage. Plugging in takes seconds, there is a button on the connector that opens the port and then it charges while you sleep.

These days for me going to the gas station for lawn mower gas is a giant hassle. I am used to filling up at home. If it takes 30 seconds a day to plug and unplug that is under 4 minutes a week and it takes far less time.

The superchargers are for travel and outside California waiting a turn to charge is basically unheard of, and the car actually displays how many stalls are on use before you arrive..

I really don't think road trips under 400miles take any longer, yes long trips will take longer but honestly fore the opportunity to get out for 30minutes makes for a more comfortable trip, thought that might just be my middle aged back.

The vast majority of charging is done as you sleep, why fixate on the duration of charging if you are in the house with the family?

On the next supercharger being 90miles away that is fine, you charge at home before leaving and probably aren't looking for a stop till 150-200miles out.

Please don't take this as saying electric is right for all, I have no plans to replace my wife's car or my beater truck with electric. Just saying your arguments are flawed.

Besides the power grid is not there for large scale adaptation, night charging during low grid load definitely has room for growth but not to replace a big percentage of the gas fleet.
People want what they want. You may think my argument is flawed but it isn't, I already stated what I want them to do to electric vehicles before I would want one. I want them to fully charge in 15 minutes and have charge stations as plentiful as gas stations. It hasn't happened yet so I don't want one, simple as that, you just aren't listening.
 

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Below is a realistic and intriguing article on this topic from a few days ago. I personally think the battle of technological advances will make the decision for most people.
If ICE technology doubles the mpg in the next decade while cutting emissions, and if battery tech only improves a little, I don't see EVs taking off in the US.
However, if battery tech quickly improves for cost and range a lot, then I could totally see massive buy in of EVs in the US.

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-cars-versus-gas-cars-america-compared-china-europe-2019-11
 

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With the massive increases in technology in ICE engines since the 1980s real mileage hasn't doubled. The suggestion it might double is laughable.

Transmission development had become so expensive with 8-10gears that arch rivals have to get in bed together to develop them and we see little real world gains.

I am not arguing EVs are developing faster major battery breakthroughs have stalled since the early 90s.

If gas mileage doubles yeah EVs will remain a niche product, but gas mileage doubling is as much a pipe dream as battery energy density doubling in the same time frame.
 

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You are probably correct on the ICE engine tech, at least a matter of scale. Given engines are already pushing 35-40% efficiency, a doubling of mpg is probably a stretch (would require an efficiency of 70-80%). So the upper limit is pretty much locked in by physics.

There is a lot of work in Aluminum based batteries. Some of the stories I have seen look like total bunk. But a few of them seem plausible, especially since aluminum batteries already exist, the problem is in the toxicity of current catalysts and in ramping up production. So if the tech advances to make such batteries safer/easier to produce, it would be a factor of 5-10 times the capacity of current lithium ion batteries (bonus, it would cut out the need for unique rare resources owned almost entirely by the Chinese). If that kind of technical leap were to occur, EVs could easily have a range over 1,000 miles. No new ICE technology could hope to compete with the cost savings and the easier maintenance and longevity of electric motors.

If no quantum leap in tech occurs in batteries then I just don't see Americans rapidly transitioning to EVs the way some automakers are assuming. I wonder what will happen if the "if you built it they will come" theory does not pan out?

But what do I know about what the masses will want, I thought smart phones were idiotic toys that would never catch on when they first came out. Now I even switched about 8 years ago and am now on my third model.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
The chance of a big increase in gas mileage by now is unlikely unless the actual chemical makeup of the gas is changed . A gas-air mixture of about 15 to 1 gives the most power (at least it used to be ), Way back in the 60s we always heard stories of some guy inventing a carburetor that could double your gas mileage and the oil companies blocked it's use , just one of those "Urban Legends " that were all BS
 

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Thing is since engines are only 35-40% efficient and the fuel is mostly consumed with little hydrocarbons leaving the tailpipe further efficiency would have to come from some dramatic friction reduction or recapturing the thermal waste that leaves the radiator and tailpipe.
I know someone played with a 6-cycle engine where on the next "intake" stroke they sprayed water which vaporized into steam driving the piston back down, this was the cooling and an attempt the use the normal radiator waste.

On the carburetor thing that presumes fuel air mixing is the issue and if ultra lean burn worked it could be done with a few keystroke in injection. Some of the issue there though is while gas can be burned leaner than 14.7:1 the burn is hotter and produces more undesirable byproducts like NOx.
Heard there was some work on using lasers to ignite the mixture closer to the center of the chamber for better burn even if that works I would expect it to be a low single digit gain.

What might be interesting is if someone found a new way to use gas to propel a car, think there is a lot of inherent inefficiency in a reciprocating ICE engine. Imagine the minds blown if someone can make an electric fuel cell that you fill with gasoline instead of cracking natural gas down the hydrogen.

Petroleum is concentrated energy we can pump out of the ground, that is going to be around for all our lifetimes despite the delusions of the left. Even if there is some magic battery break thru electric wont outright replace gas it will gain market share heck gaining majority is even plausible if there is a break thu but I believe even then gasoline will be readily available and new cars made to use it, too cheap and easy to get rid of.
 

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Discussion Starter #31

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4dr. SUV Mustang is an absolutely idiotic use of the Mustang name.

Part of the new manufacturers getting into the EV game is they will have an advantage, the first 200K EVs by a manufacturer qualify for a $7500 tax credit, meaning they can inflate the price. Being a "tax credit" makes it basically a "rich person's" tax credit. Not really rich but certainly doing OK since you need to have a $7500 tax bill from the Feds after deductions to qualify for the whole thing.
 

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you need to have a $7500 tax bill from the Feds after deductions to qualify for the whole thing.
Holy crud. I had never heard that before in any of the EV articles I read. Had to dig through several searches, but sure enough, you have to have a tax liability large enough to take the full EV credit.
Until recently, only people at the upper end of income could even afford a Tesla, so it probably wasn't an issue. But if EV cars start to come in at the $30-$40K range, there are a ton of people who can afford that vehicle, but who don't have anything close to a $7500 tax liability to take advantage of the whole credit.
Just under half of all households basically have a federal tax liability of $0 after deductions. And many more families have a tax liability way less than the full $7500.
 

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I am aware of it just because it gets lots of attention on EV boards. I didn't buy mine new, I bought 3you for half new price due to 65k miles and Wisconsin not being all the EV friendly at the time, meant the car sat for months at a dealer price falling. My car is the only dumb thing I waste money on. No cabin, no camper, no motorcycle, no sports tickets, no drinking or smoking and I even like to cook at home.

I am not Tesla's target demographic by any stretch.
The Tesla boards are chock full of educated idiots, my HS education and ability to comprehend the world arounde makes me neither of those things.
 

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I thought this might be of interest.
Today I saw a Tesla forum post about a battery failure out of warranty. I was not aware some of the small battery model S had a shorter battery warranty than the 8year unlimited mileage most cars got.
Someone has a 2013 S with the 60kw battery.132K miles warranty was 120k. Quote is $11k for a 4-year 50K mile warranty re-manufactured battery. That is pretty ugly, but contrary to popular belief this is not a common thing. Labor is under $300, at one point they thought quick swapping the battery was going to be a thing so the S battery is super easy for them.

For those that are going to scream about this I looked on GMpartsdirect for a 2017 Stingray engine and that is $7200, add in fluids, labor and such and I bet the price comes up a good bit yet, probably not $11k.
2017 CTS-V is $9400 for the engine.
Being premium cars these are a better comparison than trying to compare a malibu engine as I am sure someone was going too.
 

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It's not a surprise. Tesla is not a very reliable car. Giving them the benefit of the doubt they are fairly new and haven't sold many cars.
 

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again drop the blind hate.

Didn't even have to go looking for that saw it in active posts browsing the forum.

I will admit my wife's 2014 Impala is a more reliable car than mine but the Tesla isn't terrible.
 

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Fwiw, I don't remember the model of Tesla I rode in, but I was super impressed with the instant power/speed it produced! Talk about "git up and go" right now!
 
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