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Electric Crate Engines are in the Works

6K views 53 replies 10 participants last post by  Dwayne J 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Are aoc, "pocohontas" liz warren, and the libs going to pay for all of us to do this conversion as part of their "green new deal"? Right after they get rid of gas, cows, guns, and coal.

Interesting, but not sure the target. Figure cost of fitment, the engine, and batteries likely would this out of touch for most working class folks. That leaves the wealthy folks who probably can already afford to buy a Tesla.
 
#3 ·
it will certainly not be in my budget



 
#4 ·
This stuff will be cost prohibitive for most for awhile but really an electric motor is cheap to make, once batteries become junkyard source-able.

Yeah I drive a Tesla, a 5yo 91K mile one though not a new one, the torque and response are all I ever wanted from a traditional V8. EVs are great to drive but despite the delusions of the left wont be replacing gas anytime soon. I wouldn't even say they should replace gas but do not poopoo the OPTION.

Prices have tumbled in recent years, these days a Model 3 while smaller than an Impala is priced around where Impalas were. the base Model S while still pricey is but $80K gets you 370miles of range, 3.7 seconds 0-60 no rollout, think it is 3.5 with in a car that comes standard with some "self driving" features. Still a heck of a lot of money, but a heck of a lot of features for the money too.

Tesla's pricing from a couple years ago was gouging the "believers" and today is falling more in line with reasonable pricing. The rest of the industry will be offering electric options within a few years.

aoc fauxahontas, bernie and the like haven't the slightest clue how the world functions, the green new deal is a bad idea every which way you look at it. Just today I had my 10yo read an article about how a researcher who had the nerve to admit polar bears are thriving lost her job for such heracy. Separate EVs from the lunatic left and they can be cool.
 
#5 ·
This stuff will be cost prohibitive for most for awhile but really an electric motor is cheap to make, once batteries become junkyard source-able.

Yeah I drive a Tesla, a 5yo 91K mile one though not a new one, the torque and response are all I ever wanted from a traditional V8, and mine is 55% coal powered. EVs are great to drive but despite the delusions of the left wont be replacing gas anytime soon. I wouldn't even say they should replace gas but do not poopoo the OPTION.

Prices have tumbled in recent years, these days a Model 3 while smaller than an Impala is priced around where Impalas were. the base Model S while still pricey is but $80K gets you 370miles of range, 3.7 seconds 0-60 no rollout, think it is 3.5 with in a car that comes standard with some "self driving" features. Still a heck of a lot of money, but a heck of a lot of features for the money too.

Tesla's pricing from a couple years ago was gouging the "believers" and today is falling more in line with reasonable pricing. The rest of the industry will be offering electric options within a few years.

aoc fauxahontas, bernie and the like haven't the slightest clue how the world functions, the green new deal is a bad idea every which way you look at it. Just today I had my 10yo read an article about how a researcher who had the nerve to admit polar bears are thriving lost her job for such heresy. Separate EVs from the lunatic left and they can be cool.
 
#16 ·
People are asking too much for used cars yet, base price of the 3 $39,500 for 250miles, autopilot, 5.2 seconds to 60mph which is brisk, looks like the 3.6 Impala is 6.2. A well optioned Impala could go over $40k so it isn't like they are all $28k, the 3 is a little more expensive, think there is a little tax incentive and electricity is cheaper than gas for most of us


Until they can make a 15 minute full charge station and them make them as plentiful as gas stations I don't want an electric vehicle.
This is a popular misconception, why do you need a 15 minute fill up when you can plug in in seconds in the evening at home? A model 3 is so efficient it can get something like 5miles per hour plugged in pulling 12amps from a 15amp 120volt wall outlet, plugged in for 10 hours a night that would be enough for a 50mile commute. Charging wise, the 3 at a superchargerdepending on the battery can soak up as much as 150kw at lower charge levels which works out to like 650mph charge rate which falls as the battery fills.
https://insideevs.com/news/343622/tesla-model-3-on-supercharger-v3-here-are-the-charging-specs/
So in a roadtrip a food and bathroom break of 20-30minutes can mean 200-270miles or range added. Granted it is not 3 minutes for 400miles like a gas car but better than most of you expect.
https://electrek.co/2018/08/10/tesla-supercharger-cover-99-us-population-within-150-miles/

I have nothing against EV's but I'd like to know how long the expected battery life is. When they eventually fail what will be the replacement price , plus installation cost , plus the environmental charge to dispose of the old batteries for which there is no infrastructure for that I have heard of.
Nobody really knows how long the batteries will last, the S and X, S having been in production since 2012 the pack warranty is 8 year unlimited mileage. Mine was delivered with 265miles of range and when I bought it at 65k was down to 256, an update since cut max cell voltage a little and full is 247miles with 91K miles on the odometer. If we are honest, dirty valves, or injectors, old plugs and catalytic converters probably mean by 100K a gas car probably losses near the same 6-7% fuel economy.

Expected "recycling" method for awhile is expected to be stationary storage. The batteries don't usually "die" they will slowly degrade or be salvaged from wrecked cars at which point even a degraded battery down 20-30% or more could still be useful as off peak or solar storage, the demand for such will use up the available batteries for years to come.

I know I sound like a green nut, I am not, just I make an effort to understand this stuff since I drive an EV.
 
#7 ·
Until they can make a 15 minute full charge station and them make them as plentiful as gas stations I don't want an electric vehicle.
 
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#8 ·
That's one of my thoughts as well. But it's more of road trip need than a local commute need. That is, for most folks, a 300 mile range should get you to and from work and the mall, then plug it in at night to top it off.

You would still need a gas burner for vacation trips, unless you don't mind taking three days to drive from Louisville to Daytona :)

I could maybe see the two-car household evolving into one electric and one gasoline powered car. Even if both are driven daily, that would still reduce emissions in urban areas, where it's the most concentrated.

I'm still kind of skeptical - lots of things need to occur to make electric cars viable for widespread use, such as quick-charge batteries, which is a huge tech leap.

But the paradigm shift is happening - I have two neighbors both driving Teslas, so they're gaining some mind share. Meanwhile, I have three V-8's parked in the driveway :)

Doug

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#9 ·
I have nothing against EV's but I'd like to know how long the expected battery life is. When they eventually fail what will be the replacement price , plus installation cost , plus the environmental charge to dispose of the old batteries for which there is no infrastructure for that I have heard of.
 
#11 · (Edited)
A-men!

Too many of the arguments in favor of alternative energy fail to look at all the costs, including disposal and the corresponding environmental impact. But that doesn't stop some people from calling my F-150 a baby killer :)

Seriously, we need to be looking for improvements that make sense. Of course, that starts in Asia. If we can make environmental improvements at reasonable costs in North America, we should, but the dirty air changes here will be measured in teaspoons compared to the gallons being expelled in China.

(Should I have used metric units in that analogy? :) )

And we also need to remind ourselves how much improvement we've made over the years. I can remember when you could just about fill up your car from the river in Cleveland! Our rivers and streams along with the air in our cities are vastly cleaner now than they were 50 years ago.

(BTW, I cannot tell you how pleasantly surprised I was my first time in Cleveland in 1989 - beautiful city and great Italian cuisine :) )

Doug

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#10 ·
I know the left wing want to replace all gas and diesel vehicles with EV's but is there that much Lithium in the ground to do so , very very unlikely. As a go to work or the mall car ok for some but they will never take over as the "norm" . I'm glad it works for you Dwayne but it won't for me
 
#12 ·
Sure the US and Canada add a little pollution to the planet but it's minimal compared to China , India , etc. Those places will never embrace EV's or even care to. The Loony Left think our V8s are causing an Apocalypse , thats just BS.
My asshole Government imports Saudi Oil while blocking pipelines for our own oil. Here in B.C. I pay the highest price for gas in all of North America.
Don't get me started on that one eh Pauly
 
#13 ·
I think Plug in hybrid and electrics with small extender engines of various types will take off before electric then takes over. I have even seen plans for some unique range extender engines (small turbine\jet, diesel, rotary, etc...). I love my battery powered snow blower and there are more positives so far than negatives. But the few negatives would really give me pause when placed into an automobile. Only been through one winter, but if the benefits of this thing can be applied to e-cars and some of the negatives can be solved by future tech, then I would be fine with an e-car down the road about 5-10 years.
 
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#15 ·
I think Plug in hybrid and electrics with small extender engines of various types will take off before electric then takes over. I have even seen plans for some unique range extender engines (small turbine\jet, diesel, rotary, etc...).
Bob Lutz, former head guy at GM, makes the same point in one of his books, that it only takes a few cars with dead batteries stranded on the side of the road to make a negative impact on the market.

Basically, he advocates that all electrics have one hybrid characteristic, a basic dino engine that can charge the battery and prevent having to be towed home. Roadside service can bring a stranded driver a can of gas, but getting the batteries charged in that situation is not option - only towing is.

A 3-5 horsepower Briggs-and-Stratton turning a small generator seems like a reasonable addition to any purely electric vehicle.

Doug

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#14 ·
The Hybrid electric/gas car should have the gas engine charging the battery when using.
 
#18 ·
Some of my friends think Im daft for driving a 36 year old car with a V8 (my only car) even some on here might think the same , BUT some people buy a new car every couple of years , so considering the carbon footprint to manufacture a new car I'm more green than most , even though I hate the term Green.

 
#19 ·
VW did major damage to diesel, but I am also impressed with some of the pure diesel power advancements I have read about. Which I think still have a role to fill for the next 10-15 years. Some of the small diesel cars over in Europe are getting 50 and 60 mpg right now, even under stricter emissions standards than ever. And VW/Audi/Bentley has a 4.0 Liter V8 performance diesel over in Europe that runs crazy fast times and still gets like 35 mpg equivalent on the highway.
 
#20 ·
These are the things the Left Wingnuts don't know about or bury because it doesn't fit their agenda
 
#22 ·
You are not actually listening. The 5miles per hour is on a standard wall outlet, dryer outlet is 22miles and there are other options up over 30 you can put in your garage. Plugging in takes seconds, there is a button on the connector that opens the port and then it charges while you sleep.

These days for me going to the gas station for lawn mower gas is a giant hassle. I am used to filling up at home. If it takes 30 seconds a day to plug and unplug that is under 4 minutes a week and it takes far less time.

The superchargers are for travel and outside California waiting a turn to charge is basically unheard of, and the car actually displays how many stalls are on use before you arrive..

I really don't think road trips under 400miles take any longer, yes long trips will take longer but honestly fore the opportunity to get out for 30minutes makes for a more comfortable trip, thought that might just be my middle aged back.

The vast majority of charging is done as you sleep, why fixate on the duration of charging if you are in the house with the family?

On the next supercharger being 90miles away that is fine, you charge at home before leaving and probably aren't looking for a stop till 150-200miles out.

Please don't take this as saying electric is right for all, I have no plans to replace my wife's car or my beater truck with electric. Just saying your arguments are flawed.

Besides the power grid is not there for large scale adaptation, night charging during low grid load definitely has room for growth but not to replace a big percentage of the gas fleet.
 
#24 ·
People want what they want. You may think my argument is flawed but it isn't, I already stated what I want them to do to electric vehicles before I would want one. I want them to fully charge in 15 minutes and have charge stations as plentiful as gas stations. It hasn't happened yet so I don't want one, simple as that, you just aren't listening.
 
#23 ·
Don't forget the peak / off-peak game. In my Volt, I could program the car to charge only at certain times. In my area, off-peak hours in the summer are from 11 pm to 7 am. Running a 30 amp 240V charger I started charging at midnight and the car was fully charged before 5 am.
 
#26 ·
Below is a realistic and intriguing article on this topic from a few days ago. I personally think the battle of technological advances will make the decision for most people.
If ICE technology doubles the mpg in the next decade while cutting emissions, and if battery tech only improves a little, I don't see EVs taking off in the US.
However, if battery tech quickly improves for cost and range a lot, then I could totally see massive buy in of EVs in the US.

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-cars-versus-gas-cars-america-compared-china-europe-2019-11
 
#27 ·
With the massive increases in technology in ICE engines since the 1980s real mileage hasn't doubled. The suggestion it might double is laughable.

Transmission development had become so expensive with 8-10gears that arch rivals have to get in bed together to develop them and we see little real world gains.

I am not arguing EVs are developing faster major battery breakthroughs have stalled since the early 90s.

If gas mileage doubles yeah EVs will remain a niche product, but gas mileage doubling is as much a pipe dream as battery energy density doubling in the same time frame.
 
#28 ·
You are probably correct on the ICE engine tech, at least a matter of scale. Given engines are already pushing 35-40% efficiency, a doubling of mpg is probably a stretch (would require an efficiency of 70-80%). So the upper limit is pretty much locked in by physics.

There is a lot of work in Aluminum based batteries. Some of the stories I have seen look like total bunk. But a few of them seem plausible, especially since aluminum batteries already exist, the problem is in the toxicity of current catalysts and in ramping up production. So if the tech advances to make such batteries safer/easier to produce, it would be a factor of 5-10 times the capacity of current lithium ion batteries (bonus, it would cut out the need for unique rare resources owned almost entirely by the Chinese). If that kind of technical leap were to occur, EVs could easily have a range over 1,000 miles. No new ICE technology could hope to compete with the cost savings and the easier maintenance and longevity of electric motors.

If no quantum leap in tech occurs in batteries then I just don't see Americans rapidly transitioning to EVs the way some automakers are assuming. I wonder what will happen if the "if you built it they will come" theory does not pan out?

But what do I know about what the masses will want, I thought smart phones were idiotic toys that would never catch on when they first came out. Now I even switched about 8 years ago and am now on my third model.
 
#29 ·
The chance of a big increase in gas mileage by now is unlikely unless the actual chemical makeup of the gas is changed . A gas-air mixture of about 15 to 1 gives the most power (at least it used to be ), Way back in the 60s we always heard stories of some guy inventing a carburetor that could double your gas mileage and the oil companies blocked it's use , just one of those "Urban Legends " that were all BS
 
#30 ·
Thing is since engines are only 35-40% efficient and the fuel is mostly consumed with little hydrocarbons leaving the tailpipe further efficiency would have to come from some dramatic friction reduction or recapturing the thermal waste that leaves the radiator and tailpipe.
I know someone played with a 6-cycle engine where on the next "intake" stroke they sprayed water which vaporized into steam driving the piston back down, this was the cooling and an attempt the use the normal radiator waste.

On the carburetor thing that presumes fuel air mixing is the issue and if ultra lean burn worked it could be done with a few keystroke in injection. Some of the issue there though is while gas can be burned leaner than 14.7:1 the burn is hotter and produces more undesirable byproducts like NOx.
Heard there was some work on using lasers to ignite the mixture closer to the center of the chamber for better burn even if that works I would expect it to be a low single digit gain.

What might be interesting is if someone found a new way to use gas to propel a car, think there is a lot of inherent inefficiency in a reciprocating ICE engine. Imagine the minds blown if someone can make an electric fuel cell that you fill with gasoline instead of cracking natural gas down the hydrogen.

Petroleum is concentrated energy we can pump out of the ground, that is going to be around for all our lifetimes despite the delusions of the left. Even if there is some magic battery break thru electric wont outright replace gas it will gain market share heck gaining majority is even plausible if there is a break thu but I believe even then gasoline will be readily available and new cars made to use it, too cheap and easy to get rid of.
 
#31 ·
#33 ·
4dr. SUV Mustang is an absolutely idiotic use of the Mustang name.

Part of the new manufacturers getting into the EV game is they will have an advantage, the first 200K EVs by a manufacturer qualify for a $7500 tax credit, meaning they can inflate the price. Being a "tax credit" makes it basically a "rich person's" tax credit. Not really rich but certainly doing OK since you need to have a $7500 tax bill from the Feds after deductions to qualify for the whole thing.
 
#34 ·
you need to have a $7500 tax bill from the Feds after deductions to qualify for the whole thing.
Holy crud. I had never heard that before in any of the EV articles I read. Had to dig through several searches, but sure enough, you have to have a tax liability large enough to take the full EV credit.
Until recently, only people at the upper end of income could even afford a Tesla, so it probably wasn't an issue. But if EV cars start to come in at the $30-$40K range, there are a ton of people who can afford that vehicle, but who don't have anything close to a $7500 tax liability to take advantage of the whole credit.
Just under half of all households basically have a federal tax liability of $0 after deductions. And many more families have a tax liability way less than the full $7500.
 
#35 ·
I am aware of it just because it gets lots of attention on EV boards. I didn't buy mine new, I bought 3you for half new price due to 65k miles and Wisconsin not being all the EV friendly at the time, meant the car sat for months at a dealer price falling. My car is the only dumb thing I waste money on. No cabin, no camper, no motorcycle, no sports tickets, no drinking or smoking and I even like to cook at home.

I am not Tesla's target demographic by any stretch.
The Tesla boards are chock full of educated idiots, my HS education and ability to comprehend the world arounde makes me neither of those things.
 
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