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post #1 of (permalink) Old 05-09-2018 Thread Starter
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Speaker performance

Question for some of you "car audio guys" out there... So I recently upgraded my front speakers from a coaxial set to a component set. I did this because I thought it would reduce the "dual-tweeter" effect caused by having tweeters on both the 6.5" coaxial speakers as well as in the a-pillar. I previously tried to replace the stock a-pillar tweeter with an aftermarket Pioneer tweeter after I upgraded the door speakers, but ended up re-installing the stock tweeters as I felt the aftermarket tweeters were a little "too much". And I thought that moving to a component set would be the best way - would eliminate the dual tweeters and upgrade the stock tweeter at the same time.

Well, even with a component set of speakers, I still think that the a-pillar tweeters are "too much" and/or "too separate" - meaning that I feel that the tweeters are "too powerful" - even when I set the crossovers to -3db. It almost like the tweeters are reproducing too wide of a frequency range, which makes it easy to "locate" where the sound is coming from - and it's overwhelming the sound coming from the 6.75" door speaker. I like the tweeters in the a-pillar because it seems to help with imaging, but anything other than the stock tweeters just seem to be doing "too much".

Would I be better off moving the tweeters to the door sail panels so that they are closer to the woofer (to help the tweeter "blend" with the 6.75" speaker a little better)? Should I try reversing the phasing on one of the tweeters (I've seen that mentioned a few times now)? Has anyone else run into this situation on an 8th gen when replacing the stock speakers?

The stock tweeter just seems to sound better overall because it's not "overwhelming" - but now that I have components, I don't think that using the stock tweeter would work very well (I'd be missing a chunk of the frequencies since the crossover is sending a wider frequency range than the stock tweeter will reproduce due to it's "in-line" "bass blocker")....

Thoughts? What am I doing wrong? Do I just need to get used to the sound maybe?

Thank you!!

Last edited by jtrosky; 05-09-2018 at 10:50 AM.
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post #2 of (permalink) Old 05-09-2018
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I put the same aftermarket speakers in the doors and rear deck as you, but I have the Bose system, and a Rosen.

I get no issue from the stock A pillar tweeters at all, so I may be sufficiently gun, hot rod and rock and roll hearing deficient, of just tone deaf.

I honestly am so completely and thoroughly satisfied with the audio system, I've considered seeing if I can put the same brand and model of speakers in my '99 Silverado, because the aftermarket speakers I put in it many years ago have, due to time and weathering, begun to sound muddled and defective.

In short, nobody hears what anybody else hears; this issue is totally on the owner/listener.

And I can't thank you enough for turning us onto the speaker and Rosen choices, I am eternally grateful.
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Just to clarify - I actually think the stock tweeters sound better than any of the aftermarket tweeters that I've tried! However, in my attempt to make things even better (by switching to a component setup in the front to get rid of the "dual tweeters"), I think I made things a little worse in the treble department (as in too much) - or - and this is very possible, I just need to get used to the "different" sound. The "problem" with the component set is that you can't just use the stock tweeter because the component set is relying on the tweeter to reproduce a broader range than the stock tweeter is able to do. But then again, I could always try the stock tweeter, I suppose... I also wonder if putting a tweeter with a grille behind the stock tweeter grille is causing some "reflections" of the treble and messing with it, due to having two grilles involved - could that be possible? I think it's the lower high frequencies that are bothersome to me (around 5k) - not the real high frequencies.

But I will say - I had the Advent OGM-1 installed in my car for the past few days, and it doesn't compare to the GM1010 in terms of sound quality. Even half of the warning tones don't work (no tones work when the car is off - so no door lock tones, no headlight-on reminder tones, no door open tones, etc). I was really disappointed with the Advent. The GM1010 is a great unit for what you can get them for. I do wish they had better SD/USB interface, better bluetooth and an equalizer though...

But.... I'm pretty sure the Dynavin N7 is going to de-throne the GM1010 as my "go to" head-unit real soon! I'm working through a few issues with the distributor, but in terms of sound quality, it is top-notch - and it has a lot of features that the GM1010 doesn't (even allows you to customize the warning tone volume to *exactly* where you want it!). Look for a full review soon.... :-)

So you have the Pioneer D-Series coaxials in both the doors and rear deck? They really are awesome speakers - especially considering the price.
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post #4 of (permalink) Old 05-09-2018
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i have the jl audio c3 in the front doors and c2's in the back deck. i had the option with the c3's to locate the tweeters somewhere else or just mount them in the woofer (convertible speakers they're called i believe). i chose to leave them in the woofers and haven't had a single issue with treble. i never notice the factory tweeters working, the highs are decent. i have a kenwood excelon single din head unit with a 400 watt jvc amp. i never touched the tweeters when getting them installed ( i asked the guy installing it if he disabled them and he said no), and surprisingly they still work ( i figured they'd have died in the almost 8 years i've had the car now).
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Did you run separate wires to the woofers and the tweeters or are you using the stock harness? Where are your crossovers - mounted in/on/near the front door woofers, or inside the car near your head unit?
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I am still using the stock speaker wiring - except for the stock tweeter wiring (that now comes from the Pioneer crossover). So I took the speaker wires that were going to the door speakers and connected them to the crossover "Amp" wires. Then, from the crossover, I took the "woofer" wires and ran them to the door speaker and ran the crossover "tweeter" wires directly to the a-pillar tweeters. So technically, I'm no longer using the stock tweeter wiring since that now comes directly from the crossover.

The crossovers are actually mounted inside the vehicle. With the Pioneer TS-D1730C crossovers, Pioneer "hardwired" all of the crossover wires (no terminals) in order to reduce the size of the crossover. The wires that came on the crossovers were long enough that I could put the crossovers on the inside of the cabin, right where the rubber "boot" that runs between the door and car interior enters the cabin. I hope that makes sense. :-)

Since the stock speaker wires that go to the door speakers contain the "full frequency range", I would think this is the proper way to connect things. Then the Pioneer crossover "separates" the high and low frequencies and sends them to the appropriate driver. The stock speaker wiring just sends the full frequency range to both the door speaker and the a-pillar tweeter and the a-pillar tweeter has a built-in "inline" bass blocker so that they don't blow the tweeter.

Don't get me wrong, they sound great in general - but when I really crank them, I feel that the tweeters are overpowering and/or reproducing too wide of a frequency range - almost like it's producing a lot of mid frequencies along with the highs - and at higher volumes, it just seems like it's too much - whereas the stock tweeters would just provide that little something extra to bring the sound stage up.

Maybe I just need to get used to the change and/or allow for some "break-in" time (which I swear is really just time for people to get used to different speakers more than an actual true "break in" for the speakers themselves. :-)
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post #7 of (permalink) Old 05-10-2018
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Always ran a pioneer true pre amp equalizer after the head unit to fine tune my sound to how I wanted, but guessing that is not an option due to space in your dash. Getting the most out of your system will come from components though. Sounds like if your getting too much mid range in the tweeters that you need a higher frequency cutoff on the crossover.

So this is the new amp you were talking about in the other recent thread? Does not appear you will give it a positive review.

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Speaker performance

I would hook up all your aftermarket stuff. And then tune your system. Not sure the level of what u have for tuning. But if you did replace your factory head unit with an aftermarket one. Your want to redo that amp u have if it’s possible. Since an aftermarket radio typically is more powerful output on it, u could be overdriving your amp you put in. There’s so many videos online on ‘how to tune car stereo.

The tweeter thing is totally up to you, what sounds best to you. Tweeters typically come with a high spl rating. Meaning to doesnt take much power to make them very loud. If it sounds better with a stock tweeter than aftermarket. Then by all means keep the stock one in there. Everybody has a different taste in music, everyone has a different level of ‘how loud is to loud’.

simply do this. Start at the beginning. Set ALL eq’s to flat. Turn all gains all the way down. Then play your stereo as loud as u can handle with all that set that way. Then adjust accordingly. Brighten it up or down with your high sound adjustment. Then do the same for the mids. But having a good starting point with levels all the same and gains down. Gives you an area to start.

Also on your idea with the relocating the tweeter location. Just take some double sticky tape. And stick the tweeters in different spots and test. When u find what ya like. Mount there.


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Some more information - the sound coming from the aftermarket tweeters being "too much" is regardless of head-unit and regardless of whether I have an amp installed or not. I have NOT purchased that new Kicker amp (yet). :-) Over the past few weeks, I've been testing a LOT - with 3 different head-units, with/without amp (Alpine KTP-445U), with/without subwoofer. But what always seems common is that the aftermarket tweeters seem to be "too much". If I dull them down with tone settings, then I lose the highs that I actually like. If I keep the tone settings where I get the "high highs", then the mid-highs are still overwhelming at higher volumes.

I just can't seem to find that "sweet spot" where everything sounds good at low and high volumes.

Obviously, the crossovers for the pioneer component speakers are "fixed" - I cannot change them (unless I completely replace the entire crossover that came with the component speakers).

Let me try some more specific questions (and I'll experiment a little, just looking for some opinions):

1. Do you think it may be an issue by stuffing an aftermarket tweeter into the stock tweeter location? The reason that I ask is because the aftermarket tweeters usually have a "rounded" grille - and the stock tweeter grille is "flat". So I'm wondering if this is causing an "echo" of sorts from the tweeters because the aftermarket tweeter grille is not sitting flush with the stock tweeter location grille...

2. I've read a lot about reversing the phase on one or both of the tweeters to calm them down (apparently, overpowering tweeters is a very common issue!). Has anyone ever done this? Any opinions on this?

3. I've also read that having the the tweeters too far away from the woofer in a component set can cause the tweeters to sound too "separate" from the woofers. Anyone have any experience with that? That was why I was considering moving the aftermarket tweeters to the door sail panel - would resolve #1 and #3 (assuming they are actually issues).

I'm just looking for some opinions from people that have experienced "overwhelming" tweeters and how they've handled it.

Like I said, I can try the stock tweeters, but since the stock tweeter cutoff freq is very different from the crossover freq in the pioneer component crossover, I don't think that will work out very well (I'd be missing the freqs between the stock tweeter cutoff freq and the pioneer crossover freq). The pioneer sends a much wider freq range to the tweeters than the stock tweeters are designed to accept via the bass-blocker (which I'm not so sure can be removed - it's designed as part of the speaker itself - not just in-line in the wiring)...

Will do some more experimenting with tweeter locations and phasing and report back...
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You were talking earlier about the head unit. And thinking of replacing that. Try your best to find one with a really nice eq adjustment in it. The more EQ adjustment u have, you’ll be able to ‘phase down’ areas of the tweeter sounds that are driving ya mad.

I have worked with a crazy amount of tweeters in the past. This seemed to be the best ‘help to fix’ for it was we had a really nice EQ to tune with. U may be right to set them out of phase. Give it a try, can’t hurt to try that.


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Yeah, the new Dynavin N7 plug-and-play unit that I'm currently testing has LOTS of EQ features (bass/mid/treble, 9-band EQ, Loudness switch, time alignment, per-source preamp levels, etc). So I *think* that will probably allow me to fine tune things a little better (the Rosen GM1010 that I'm used to, and really like, only has Bass/Mid/Treble and a BBE "strength" setting - no EQ).

So far, with my limited testing, the time alignment stuff seems really nice. Unfortunately, the door speakers and the tweeters are on the same channel, so I can't have different time align value for the woofer and tweeter (not sure if that would matter much or not though)...

I don't know - I still think maybe I just need to give myself a little more time to get used to the new setup too - who knows... Will continue to test and tune. :-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
So you have the Pioneer D-Series coaxials in both the doors and rear deck? They really are awesome speakers - especially considering the price.
Yes.

I'm going to see if I can get some in sizes to fit my '99 Silverado.
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If it is a level problem - and not a crossover frequency problem - I think what you need is something called an L-pad attenuator to adjust the tweeter level. Here is a L-pad that is for four ohms:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CLAROSTAT-C...R/192304792947

You would need one for each channel, or a unit that is designed for stereo. I mostly see 8 ohm L-pads rather than 4-ohms.

Definition of a L-pad from Wikipedia: "A speaker L pad is a special configuration of rheostats used to control volume while maintaining a constant load impedance on the output of the audio amplifier. It consists of a parallel and a series rheostat connected in an "L" configuration. As one increases in resistance, the other decreases, thus maintaining a constant impedance, at least in one direction. In loudspeaker systems having a crossover network, it is necessary to maintain impedance to the crossover; this avoids shifting the crossover point."

On changing the phase of the tweeters - here's something I cut and pasted from the diyaudio forum: "One comment on tweeter polarity. i.e. choosing the right polarity. Try pink noise and sit fairly close (and on the intended listening axis). Reverse the polarity repeatedly. The better position will make the sound more integrated and will make the units sound like they merge. With the wrong choice the woofer and tweeter are perceived as separate and distinct units."

"The pioneer sends a much wider freq range to the tweeters than the stock tweeters are designed to accept via the bass-blocker..." What you are calling the bass-blocker is an electrolytic capacitor, right? Your '12 may be different from my '07, but the stock tweeter already does receive the full frequency signal - the capacitor creates a 6db slope crossover point that only allows higher frequencies to pass. My point is, try the stock tweeters with your new woofers; the stock tweeters won't be damaged, and if you are lucky everything may sound good.

Some reviewers of the Pioneer TS-D1730C on Amazon say the tweeter is bright. These speakers may just not be pleasing for you. I don't think you have to get used to them. You could exchange or return them if that option is available to you. I think that may be preferable to adding L-pads or other modifications. But trying the stock tweeters and changing the phasing are worth attempting first.

Last edited by Lettermark; 05-10-2018 at 11:28 PM.
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Thanks for all of the input. At this point, I'm not sure if it's a level problem, a crossover frequency problem or not really a problem at all and I just need to spend some more time with it before coming to a final conclusion. :-)

When I talked about the stock tweeters not being set up for as wide a range of frequencies, I'm basing that on the uF rating of the capacitors used.

The capacitor used in the Pioneer 1730c crossover is a 6.8uF. The capacitor used on the stock tweeters is a 4.7uF. If my understanding (and this website: http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=1) are correct, this means that:

The pioneer crossover is sending frequencies above 5845Hz to the tweeter.
The stock tweeters is only "using" frequencies above 8457Hz (due to the 4.7uF in-line capacitor).

So (again, if I'm understanding all of this properly), if I put the stock tweeter in, I would basically lose all frequencies between 5845Hz and 8456Hz (or at least they would be WAY lower than the rest of the frequencies). But then again, maybe I'll prefer that - who knows. :-)

I'm going to do some further experimenting with location, phasing and even different tweeters (I still have some Pioneer TS-T15 tweeters that I can try as well).

I'll be sure to report back...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrosky View Post
...if I put the stock tweeter in, I would basically lose all frequencies between 5845Hz and 8456Hz (or at least they would be WAY lower than the rest of the frequencies)...
A single capacitor is a 6db slope, which is not a sharp cutoff or rate of decline, so it's not a brick wall. It's more of a gradual roll-off. If you used an active (electronic) crossover, it would probably have a 12db slope, which is steeper. Your woofer will still be producing output in that "missing" range. It's possible that a slight dip in response may actually sound better because both drivers are not reinforcing each other. Looking forward to your results...
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